This is something I discussed briefly with Paul the other day. The Roads List pages have a fairly comprehensive listing of Northern Ireland B-roads, though I don't know if it's complete. On the other hand, I think only the A1 and A2 have been entered in the A-roads category. As for motorways, there is no opportunity at all for members to submit details as far as I can see.
Would anyone like to take charge of a Northern Ireland motorway and/or A-road listing project? I think we've got at least two members from the Province now, and it'd be good if we could start to bring the standard up to the level that we're at for the roads in Great Britain.
Guy
Northern Ireland road listings
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dmccormick
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(raises hand sheepishly) I would quite like to oversee such a thing... but I wouldn't have the time to do it by myself.
I'm from Northern Ireland, and, as you will see here: http://groups.msn.com/TheSABRERoadsWebs ... ssage=9236
I started compiling alisting of all the C-roads (yes, you read that correctly) in Northern Ireland, from my own maps. I'm the only person I know of who has this information (besides my grandfather, who I got the information from), and I suspect I'm one of only a very small number of people to actually have this information, outside, that is, of the government itself. I kinda trailed off a bit in listing them- I ran out of time that week, and then I never quite got back into the swing of things... anyway,I would be happy to work towards completing it, if I knew it had backing from the Admin team.
I can do the motorways in a very short time (we only have 2, yes, 2 motorways longer than about 5/6 miles in length!), but not tonight. The B-road list is not complete - it's missing a number of them -but it is a good start. The A-roads are a different story - they have no rhyme nor reason to them - they jump about like grasshoppers: e.g. the A31 runs from Castledawson to Magherafelt, just NW of Lough Neagh, while the A32 runs from Omagh to Enniskillen to Swalinbar, near Lough Erne in Fermanagh!
That's the situation as I see it, anyway.
David McCormick
I'm from Northern Ireland, and, as you will see here: http://groups.msn.com/TheSABRERoadsWebs ... ssage=9236
I started compiling alisting of all the C-roads (yes, you read that correctly) in Northern Ireland, from my own maps. I'm the only person I know of who has this information (besides my grandfather, who I got the information from), and I suspect I'm one of only a very small number of people to actually have this information, outside, that is, of the government itself. I kinda trailed off a bit in listing them- I ran out of time that week, and then I never quite got back into the swing of things... anyway,I would be happy to work towards completing it, if I knew it had backing from the Admin team.
I can do the motorways in a very short time (we only have 2, yes, 2 motorways longer than about 5/6 miles in length!), but not tonight. The B-road list is not complete - it's missing a number of them -but it is a good start. The A-roads are a different story - they have no rhyme nor reason to them - they jump about like grasshoppers: e.g. the A31 runs from Castledawson to Magherafelt, just NW of Lough Neagh, while the A32 runs from Omagh to Enniskillen to Swalinbar, near Lough Erne in Fermanagh!
That's the situation as I see it, anyway.
David McCormick
David McCormick: << (raises hand sheepishly) I would quite like to oversee such a thing... but I wouldn't have the time to do it by myself. >>
Thanks for the offer - I wasn'texpecting a single-handed effort! I'd completely missed your C-road listings since for some inexplicable reason they'd ended up on the "Driving" board. Are there plans to put them up on one of the websites?
I suggest you come and join us on the Steering Committee (http://groups.msn.com/SABREAdmin) to discuss it further. Ideally we ought to be covering the motorways and A-roads in a similar style to the ones in Great Britain, though I'm not sure if we've got the personnel yet. Do you know if there are any Northern Ireland members apart from Ian P. and yourself? We may need to start recruiting.
Possiblities: could the Northern Ireland motorways be incorporated into CBRD's database? Would you be willing to oversee a Northern Ireland version of First 99?
Guy
Thanks for the offer - I wasn'texpecting a single-handed effort! I'd completely missed your C-road listings since for some inexplicable reason they'd ended up on the "Driving" board. Are there plans to put them up on one of the websites?
I suggest you come and join us on the Steering Committee (http://groups.msn.com/SABREAdmin) to discuss it further. Ideally we ought to be covering the motorways and A-roads in a similar style to the ones in Great Britain, though I'm not sure if we've got the personnel yet. Do you know if there are any Northern Ireland members apart from Ian P. and yourself? We may need to start recruiting.
Possiblities: could the Northern Ireland motorways be incorporated into CBRD's database? Would you be willing to oversee a Northern Ireland version of First 99?
Guy
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dmccormick
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Guy: <<Thanks for the offer - I wasn'texpecting a single-handed effort! I'd completely missed your C-road listings since for some inexplicable reason they'd ended up on the "Driving" board. Are there plans to put them up on one of the websites?>>
Not that I know of, though I'm baffled how it ended up in "Driving"! I'm about to repost a summary of the thread in General.
<<I suggest you come and join us on the Steering Committee (http://groups.msn.com/SABREAdmin) to discuss it further.>>
I will, as soon as I get around to joining! For now I'll use thisthread.
<<Ideally we ought to be covering the motorways and A-roads in a similar style to the ones in Great Britain, though I'm not sure if we've got the personnel yet. Do you know if there are any Northern Ireland members apart from Ian P. and yourself? We may need to start recruiting.>>
I don't know, but perhaps a recruitment drive on the newsgroups would help?
<<Possiblities: could the Northern Ireland motorways be incorporated into CBRD's database?>>
Perhaps, I don't see why not. However, remember that we have less than 70 miles of motorway.
<<Would you be willing to oversee a Northern Ireland version of First 99?>>
It couldn't be called that - the A-roads are numbered (AFAICR) A1-54, A57, A76, A501-515. But, yes, I think I'd be willing to oversee the project.
David McCormick
Not that I know of, though I'm baffled how it ended up in "Driving"! I'm about to repost a summary of the thread in General.
<<I suggest you come and join us on the Steering Committee (http://groups.msn.com/SABREAdmin) to discuss it further.>>
I will, as soon as I get around to joining! For now I'll use thisthread.
<<Ideally we ought to be covering the motorways and A-roads in a similar style to the ones in Great Britain, though I'm not sure if we've got the personnel yet. Do you know if there are any Northern Ireland members apart from Ian P. and yourself? We may need to start recruiting.>>
I don't know, but perhaps a recruitment drive on the newsgroups would help?
<<Possiblities: could the Northern Ireland motorways be incorporated into CBRD's database?>>
Perhaps, I don't see why not. However, remember that we have less than 70 miles of motorway.
<<Would you be willing to oversee a Northern Ireland version of First 99?>>
It couldn't be called that - the A-roads are numbered (AFAICR) A1-54, A57, A76, A501-515. But, yes, I think I'd be willing to oversee the project.
David McCormick
Guy and David,
Certainly I'll help here. I have driven on every primary route in NI (although not always in entirety), so I know them all fairly well. Like David I'm severely pushed for time. But we'll work something out.
Since pedantry is allowed on this list I'll point out that there *is*, of course, an A55 in NI.
I have no hugely satisfactory explanation for the bizarre system. My theory is as follows.
The A1 (also N1/M1) from Dublin-Belfast also happens to be the first postal route in Ireland from the 1700s. The A2 in NI also happens to correspond with the second, which went around the coast from the gateway to Ulster (both land and sea) at Newry through to Derry, another major entry point. In the early 1800s the industrialized Belfast became economically by far the most important city in Belfast, so it would not surprise me (although I do not know for sure) if the third postal route was Belfast-Armagh (the ecclesiatical capital and at the time a comparatively more important trading centre), the fourth Belfast-Enniskillen (and the West generally), the fifth Dublin-Derry, the seventh Belfast-Downpatrick (another main centre and administrative capital of Co Down) and the eighth Belfast-Larne (which was becoming a more important port). The sixth and ninth routes may well have fallen in the modern-day Irish Republic. If this is true, the order in which the postal routes were formed corresponds to the single-digit A-road numbers. Pure hypothesis (other than the A1 and A2 which I know to correspond), but it's the best I can do!
I've also *never* understood why three-digit A numbers are required here when the two-digit (and even one-digit) onesaren't exhausted! The three-digit ones also occur in very different locations. Again one can't help but feel there was some all-Ireland element to it originally, but we've had that debate before!
Without meaning to be overly political, I also don't understand why we don't come into line on car numberplates. A series with an initial letter for Northern Ireland could still be administered by the NI offices. But then nothing surprises me since the Government ran a consultant on whether to change our sticker from 'GB' to 'UK', the consultation returned an overwhelming yes-vote, so they, er, didn't... I'll not get started...
Ian P.
Certainly I'll help here. I have driven on every primary route in NI (although not always in entirety), so I know them all fairly well. Like David I'm severely pushed for time. But we'll work something out.
Since pedantry is allowed on this list I'll point out that there *is*, of course, an A55 in NI.
I have no hugely satisfactory explanation for the bizarre system. My theory is as follows.
The A1 (also N1/M1) from Dublin-Belfast also happens to be the first postal route in Ireland from the 1700s. The A2 in NI also happens to correspond with the second, which went around the coast from the gateway to Ulster (both land and sea) at Newry through to Derry, another major entry point. In the early 1800s the industrialized Belfast became economically by far the most important city in Belfast, so it would not surprise me (although I do not know for sure) if the third postal route was Belfast-Armagh (the ecclesiatical capital and at the time a comparatively more important trading centre), the fourth Belfast-Enniskillen (and the West generally), the fifth Dublin-Derry, the seventh Belfast-Downpatrick (another main centre and administrative capital of Co Down) and the eighth Belfast-Larne (which was becoming a more important port). The sixth and ninth routes may well have fallen in the modern-day Irish Republic. If this is true, the order in which the postal routes were formed corresponds to the single-digit A-road numbers. Pure hypothesis (other than the A1 and A2 which I know to correspond), but it's the best I can do!
I've also *never* understood why three-digit A numbers are required here when the two-digit (and even one-digit) onesaren't exhausted! The three-digit ones also occur in very different locations. Again one can't help but feel there was some all-Ireland element to it originally, but we've had that debate before!
Without meaning to be overly political, I also don't understand why we don't come into line on car numberplates. A series with an initial letter for Northern Ireland could still be administered by the NI offices. But then nothing surprises me since the Government ran a consultant on whether to change our sticker from 'GB' to 'UK', the consultation returned an overwhelming yes-vote, so they, er, didn't... I'll not get started...
Ian P.
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Ian P. (IJP1)
Ian P. (IJP1)
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dmccormick
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David McC: << It couldn't be called that - the A-roads are numbered (AFAICR) A1-54, A57, A76, A501-515.>>
Guy: <<Do you (or does someone else) have any explanation for this bizarre sequence? It's hardly as though there weren't enough two-digit numbers.>>
Actually it can be partially explained - A1-A55 was the originals. A57 and A76 were formerly B57 and B76 respectively, so they kept their number, just changing their prefix. A501-515 were added later.
Guy: <<Do you (or does someone else) have any explanation for this bizarre sequence? It's hardly as though there weren't enough two-digit numbers.>>
Actually it can be partially explained - A1-A55 was the originals. A57 and A76 were formerly B57 and B76 respectively, so they kept their number, just changing their prefix. A501-515 were added later.
<<I also don't understand why we don't come into line on car numberplates. A series with an initial letterfor Northern Ireland could still be administered by the NI offices. >>
I think "Z" may have been kept clear in the new Great Britain system to allow NI to be added to the system later, in the same way that "MN" has been reserved(J, T, U and some Xare available for vanity plates, but not I or Z).
NI style plates are actually a money spinner for the NI licensing authority, as they are undated and thereforepopular with people wanting to disguise the age of their vehicles - often coach operators. Those ending with the letter "I" can also be used to make two-letter initials - for example AOI 2345 can be spaced to read AO 12345. When the MBZ series was issued many were snapped up by Mercedes owners.
The authorities may also find having a clearly distinctive systems on either side of the Irish Sea, so that vehicles on the "wrong" side are easier to spot.
I think "Z" may have been kept clear in the new Great Britain system to allow NI to be added to the system later, in the same way that "MN" has been reserved(J, T, U and some Xare available for vanity plates, but not I or Z).
NI style plates are actually a money spinner for the NI licensing authority, as they are undated and thereforepopular with people wanting to disguise the age of their vehicles - often coach operators. Those ending with the letter "I" can also be used to make two-letter initials - for example AOI 2345 can be spaced to read AO 12345. When the MBZ series was issued many were snapped up by Mercedes owners.
The authorities may also find having a clearly distinctive systems on either side of the Irish Sea, so that vehicles on the "wrong" side are easier to spot.
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dmccormick
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- Location: Northern Ireland
OK, I've done some thinking. The only motorways in NI are as follows:
M1 - Belfast-Dungannon
M12 - M1-Craigavon (short, should be done with M1)
M2 - Belfast-Antrim + Ballymena Bypass (short, should be done with M2)
M22 - Antrim-Randalstown (short, should be done with M2)
M3 - Lagan Bridge, Belfast (short, but perhaps deserves its own section, rather than being with the M2)
M5 - Greencastle-Rushpark (M2 to A2) (short, should be done with M2)
A8(M) - Sandyknowes-Corr's Corner (M2 to A8) (short, should be done with M2)
The trunk roads in NI are numbered - T1, T2, and so on up to T23. These are basically classified in a similar way to those on the mainland, but they have numbers, as follows:
T1 - A2 Belfast-Holywood-Bangor
T2 - A24/A2 Belfast-Carryduff-Newcastle
T3 - A1/A3/A4/A5 Belfast-Lisburn-Portadown-Ballygawley-Omagh-Derry
T4 - A1 Belfast-Lisburn-Banbridge-Newry-border
T5 - A3 Portadown-Armagh
T6 - A5/A4 - border (south of Ballygawley)-Ballygawley-Enniskillen- border (Belcoo)
T7 - A6/A26/A37/A2 - Belfast-Antrim-Coleraine-Derry
T8 - A26/A6/A31/A29 - Moira (A3)-Antrim-Castledawson-Cookstown
T9 - A8 Belfast-Larne
T10 - A509/A32/A505 - border (Belturbet)-Enniskillen-Omagh-Cookstown
T11 - A20 Belfast-Newtownards
T12 - A22/A21 - Dundonald-Comber-Newtownards
T13 - A7 Carryduff-Downpatrick
T14 - A55 Belfast Outer Ring
T15 - A28/A29 Newry-Armagh-Dungannon-Cookstown-Coleraine
T16 - A27 Newry-Portadown
T17 - A6 Castledawson-Dungiven-Derry
T18 - A44 Clogh Mills (A26)-Ballycastle
T19 - A36 Ballymena-Kilwaughter (A8)
T20 - A57 Belfast Intl Airport-Templepatrick-Ballyclare-Ballynure (A8)
T21 - M5(!)/A2 Greencastle-Carrickfergus - yes, a motorway classed as a trunk road. Whatever next!
T22 - A514/A515 Derry Ring Road
T23 - A46 Enniskillen-Belleek
(Strangely enough, while large parts of the T3 from Belfast-Portadown-Dungannon have been rendered little used by the M1, the T3 still exists. Same goes for all the other trunk roads that have been superceded by motorway.)
I think these sections should be our priority. All we need now is volunteers! I'm going to leave choosing my sections until the end, so that other people get the best choice.
David McCormick
M1 - Belfast-Dungannon
M12 - M1-Craigavon (short, should be done with M1)
M2 - Belfast-Antrim + Ballymena Bypass (short, should be done with M2)
M22 - Antrim-Randalstown (short, should be done with M2)
M3 - Lagan Bridge, Belfast (short, but perhaps deserves its own section, rather than being with the M2)
M5 - Greencastle-Rushpark (M2 to A2) (short, should be done with M2)
A8(M) - Sandyknowes-Corr's Corner (M2 to A8) (short, should be done with M2)
The trunk roads in NI are numbered - T1, T2, and so on up to T23. These are basically classified in a similar way to those on the mainland, but they have numbers, as follows:
T1 - A2 Belfast-Holywood-Bangor
T2 - A24/A2 Belfast-Carryduff-Newcastle
T3 - A1/A3/A4/A5 Belfast-Lisburn-Portadown-Ballygawley-Omagh-Derry
T4 - A1 Belfast-Lisburn-Banbridge-Newry-border
T5 - A3 Portadown-Armagh
T6 - A5/A4 - border (south of Ballygawley)-Ballygawley-Enniskillen- border (Belcoo)
T7 - A6/A26/A37/A2 - Belfast-Antrim-Coleraine-Derry
T8 - A26/A6/A31/A29 - Moira (A3)-Antrim-Castledawson-Cookstown
T9 - A8 Belfast-Larne
T10 - A509/A32/A505 - border (Belturbet)-Enniskillen-Omagh-Cookstown
T11 - A20 Belfast-Newtownards
T12 - A22/A21 - Dundonald-Comber-Newtownards
T13 - A7 Carryduff-Downpatrick
T14 - A55 Belfast Outer Ring
T15 - A28/A29 Newry-Armagh-Dungannon-Cookstown-Coleraine
T16 - A27 Newry-Portadown
T17 - A6 Castledawson-Dungiven-Derry
T18 - A44 Clogh Mills (A26)-Ballycastle
T19 - A36 Ballymena-Kilwaughter (A8)
T20 - A57 Belfast Intl Airport-Templepatrick-Ballyclare-Ballynure (A8)
T21 - M5(!)/A2 Greencastle-Carrickfergus - yes, a motorway classed as a trunk road. Whatever next!
T22 - A514/A515 Derry Ring Road
T23 - A46 Enniskillen-Belleek
(Strangely enough, while large parts of the T3 from Belfast-Portadown-Dungannon have been rendered little used by the M1, the T3 still exists. Same goes for all the other trunk roads that have been superceded by motorway.)
I think these sections should be our priority. All we need now is volunteers! I'm going to leave choosing my sections until the end, so that other people get the best choice.
David McCormick
Thanks, David! I had no idea there was a separate system of trunk road numbering in NI. When I proposeed something similar for GB a certain assistant manager suggested I was mad...
Which numbers are displayed more prominently on the signs?
<< All we need now is volunteers! >>
We also need a volunteer to put them up on a website. Doesn't have to be one of the existing website maintainers, of course - perhaps someone else would like to have a go if they have webspace available. We can link everything through to the Portal in due course. (Not for a while, though - Paul's rather busy revamping the GB roads for the next month!).
Guy
Which numbers are displayed more prominently on the signs?
<< All we need now is volunteers! >>
We also need a volunteer to put them up on a website. Doesn't have to be one of the existing website maintainers, of course - perhaps someone else would like to have a go if they have webspace available. We can link everything through to the Portal in due course. (Not for a while, though - Paul's rather busy revamping the GB roads for the next month!).
Guy
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dmccormick
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Guy: <<Could we create a separate message board for NI road listings, as with First 99 and Roads by 10? I'm afraid I can't think of a snappy title for this one 
>>
Perhaps, though the number of roads is not very high. I dunno about a title - as the road numbers have no sensible system for numbering, why not just call it NI Roads - it can be a general NI forum.
Ian P.: <<T-numbers are not given at all on signs. However, they are more prominent in official Government documents and announcements (eg notifications of roadworks etc).>>
Indeed - I got the numbers from the legislation. T1-9 and part of T10 were classified in 1949, and the remaining roads became trunk in 1998.
<<Personally I would like to see them replace the present numbers almost wholesale!>>
Seconded.I think the current A-road numbering system is a farce, and I have even developed a proposal for renumbering all the roads in NI - I'll post it if you'd like to see it. It's based on a "cone" system, almost identical to that in England, though I do break the rules occasionally.
It just shows how strangely numbered the roads are, as in my plan the A2 would be split into the A24, A2, B181, A11, A1, A81, A76, A75, A62 and A61! The A2 runs round the coast from Newry to Londonderry, via Newcastle, Strangford, Bangor, Belfast, Carrickfergus, Larne, Ballycastle, Coleraine and Castlerock! The A2 is pointless - no-one - and I mean no-one in their right mind - would ever use the A2 to go from Newry to Londonderry! According to MS Autoroute, going entirely round the A2 would take 6 hours; the quickest route between Newry and Londonderry would only take 2? hours!
Anyway, I've rambled long enough.
David McCormick
>>Perhaps, though the number of roads is not very high. I dunno about a title - as the road numbers have no sensible system for numbering, why not just call it NI Roads - it can be a general NI forum.
Ian P.: <<T-numbers are not given at all on signs. However, they are more prominent in official Government documents and announcements (eg notifications of roadworks etc).>>
Indeed - I got the numbers from the legislation. T1-9 and part of T10 were classified in 1949, and the remaining roads became trunk in 1998.
<<Personally I would like to see them replace the present numbers almost wholesale!>>
Seconded.I think the current A-road numbering system is a farce, and I have even developed a proposal for renumbering all the roads in NI - I'll post it if you'd like to see it. It's based on a "cone" system, almost identical to that in England, though I do break the rules occasionally.
It just shows how strangely numbered the roads are, as in my plan the A2 would be split into the A24, A2, B181, A11, A1, A81, A76, A75, A62 and A61! The A2 runs round the coast from Newry to Londonderry, via Newcastle, Strangford, Bangor, Belfast, Carrickfergus, Larne, Ballycastle, Coleraine and Castlerock! The A2 is pointless - no-one - and I mean no-one in their right mind - would ever use the A2 to go from Newry to Londonderry! According to MS Autoroute, going entirely round the A2 would take 6 hours; the quickest route between Newry and Londonderry would only take 2? hours!
Anyway, I've rambled long enough.
David McCormick