Useless Multiplexes

[Owain]

And as for the A303/A30: I reckon they should swap the numbers over, so that the important route is continuous as the A30 (or even M30, in about 40 years' time).

[Richardf]

And as for the A303/A30: I reckon they should swap the numbers over, so that the important route is continuous as the A30 (or even M30, in about 40 years' time).

Too late for that now. Would cause too much confusion. People are familiar with the A303 as the route east/west in that part of the country. I agree though from a sabristic point of view it would make more sense to have it the other way around. Its a pity that when the A303 was created they couldnt have come up with a better number and left A303 where it was or given it to a lesser route.

[skiddaw05]

Not necessarily. After all a lot of the A45 was renumbered the A14 and people seemed to manage. However this renumbering did follow some significant improvements to this particular east coast to the midlands route. A renumbering of the A303 to the A30 might give the impression that the route is being upgraded, which in the current climate looks unlikely.

A similar situation is with the A616/A628 route, which would be more logical to be the A57.

[Owain]

Confusion or no confusion, since I moved to Frome I've become more aware of the mess that we have in the '3' zone. In my opinion the A30 number is wasted in the bit where it is bypassed by A303, A32 is wasted completely, and A39 is wasted for much of its length. Besides the A303 change, I reckon that the important A322 (between M3 and M4), the A350 (between Chippenham-Poole), and the A350/A361/A39 route (between M4 Chippenham and M5 Taunton) could all make better use of these numbers. The latter case is quite similar to the A616/A628 mess between Sheffield and Manchester. And then there is A417/A419... Sorry for digressing from the 'useless multiplexes' theme!

[nowster]

The most obvious former useless multiplex was the A494/A550 one between Shotwick Lights and Queensferry. Northeastbound, only the A550 was signed; southwestbound, only the A494, with the Queensferry junction signage hiding the fact that the A550 left there, to encourage traffic to continue on to the A55 eastbound.

Nowadays, the A494 continues through to the M56, but that wasn't the case for many years.

[t1(M)]

Re. other multiplexes involving motorways: I believe the M40 'carries' both the A34 and the A41 in a multiplex from Bicester to Birmingham. This multiplex is so long that I can hardly see the point of continuing the same road numbers at the other end.

Conversely, I can't see the point of changing the status quo in this case.

The remaining sections of the A41 are both quite long. Likewise for the A34. It would be a major exercise to change all the signs from Birmingham to Liverpool, and Birmingham to Manchester (or Bicester to Winchester and Bicester to London), and would achieve very little except to confuse the public.

The gap is so big that there is little or no confusion caused by the current situation, with effectively two roads with the same number over 50 miles apart.

And spare A4x (or even A4xx) numbers are not available - leave well alone I say.

[Owain]

Re. other multiplexes involving motorways: I believe the M40 'carries' both the A34 and the A41 in a multiplex from Bicester to Birmingham. This multiplex is so long that I can hardly see the point of continuing the same road numbers at the other end.

Conversely, I can't see the point of changing the status quo in this case.

The remaining sections of the A41 are both quite long. Likewise for the A34. It would be a major exercise to change all the signs from Birmingham to Liverpool, and Birmingham to Manchester (or Bicester to Winchester and Bicester to London), and would achieve very little except to confuse the public.

The gap is so big that there is little or no confusion caused by the current situation, with effectively two roads with the same number over 50 miles apart.

And spare A4x (or even A4xx) numbers are not available - leave well alone I say.

You're probably right! I was citing these as an example of multiplexes which I think are pretty useless, but I didn't mean to imply that they should be changed.

[Chris Bertram]

And spare A4x (or even A4xx) numbers are not available - leave well alone I say.

A434 is currently unused, as is A455. The former, long unused, has often been suggested as a better number for the A3400. The latter is only recently deceased, but would be a better number for the A491 which really belongs in north-west Wales.

[Jonny A46]

Of the 3-zone First 99, this is what I make of each of them:

A30 - Yes, it plays second fiddle to the A303 but I don't mind that, it's great for us sabristi! Also, the A303 number has become established in popular culture so I would keep it as it is. I would however change it so that it leaves the A303 at Andover and follows the A343 to Salisbury. Also, the A343 could be extended along the A3057 to Romsey or to form a backroute to Southampton.
A31 - Nothing wrong with this route in my opinion.
A32 - Not great, but better than the A29 (remember it has lost a lot of its original route). I would extend it along the A339 to Basingstoke, and then along the A33 to Reading.
A33 - This could easily become an A74 situation. The bits in Southampton and between between Winchester and North Waltham could be given A3xx numbers, and with the A32 extended, this number could then be recycled for a more important route (perhaps Bournemouth to Swindon?).
A34 - Long multiplex I know, but there's nothing wrong with the route really.
A35 - I think this is fine as it is.
A36 - Should be rerouted from Warminster to the M4 past Chippenham, avoiding the east of Bath area.
A37 - Fine as it is along its present route from Bristol to Dorchester, but it would be better if it continued along the A354 to Weymouth (which is not only more logical, but it's a better number).
A38 - Absolutely fine. You can't beat Bodmin to Mansfield, can you? (Well, A1 London-Edinburgh is longer, but not as great!)
A39 - Wasted on the Bridgwater to Barnstaple section. It could be rerouted along the A361 to Taunton and along the WDLR, but then somehow it doesn't seem right to swap them (look at the lines of the road on a map and you'll see what I mean), so I think this could stay as is it.

Overall, I think the A3x numbers, while not perfect as they are, with a bit of changing of signs could make more sense and ensure that all numbers are given to roads of reasonable importance. Of the roads, in my opinion the A31, A34, A35 and A38 are definitely okay as they are, with possibly the A30 and A39 for sabristic interest.

[Owain]

And spare A4x (or even A4xx) numbers are not available - leave well alone I say.

A434 is currently unused, as is A455. The former, long unused, has often been suggested as a better number for the A3400.

Yes, absolutely!

[Owain]

Of the 3-zone First 99, this is what I make of each of them:

A30 - Yes, it plays second fiddle to the A303 but I don't mind that, it's great for us sabristi! Also, the A303 number has become established in popular culture so I would keep it as it is. I would however change it so that it leaves the A303 at Andover and follows the A343 to Salisbury. Also, the A343 could be extended along the A3057 to Romsey or to form a backroute to Southampton.
A31 - Nothing wrong with this route in my opinion.
A32 - Not great, but better than the A29 (remember it has lost a lot of its original route). I would extend it along the A339 to Basingstoke, and then along the A33 to Reading.
A33 - This could easily become an A74 situation. The bits in Southampton and between between Winchester and North Waltham could be given A3xx numbers, and with the A32 extended, this number could then be recycled for a more important route (perhaps Bournemouth to Swindon?).
A34 - Long multiplex I know, but there's nothing wrong with the route really.
A35 - I think this is fine as it is.
A36 - Should be rerouted from Warminster to the M4 past Chippenham, avoiding the east of Bath area.
A37 - Fine as it is along its present route from Bristol to Dorchester, but it would be better if it continued along the A354 to Weymouth (which is not only more logical, but it's a better number).
A38 - Absolutely fine. You can't beat Bodmin to Mansfield, can you? (Well, A1 London-Edinburgh is longer, but not as great!)
A39 - Wasted on the Bridgwater to Barnstaple section. It could be rerouted along the A361 to Taunton and along the WDLR, but then somehow it doesn't seem right to swap them (look at the lines of the road on a map and you'll see what I mean), so I think this could stay as is it.

Overall, I think the A3x numbers, while not perfect as they are, with a bit of changing of signs could make more sense and ensure that all numbers are given to roads of reasonable importance. Of the roads, in my opinion the A31, A34, A35 and A38 are definitely okay as they are, with possibly the A30 and A39 for sabristic interest.

We've been thinking along similar lines:

A30 - I'd still prefer to see this follow the A303 route.
A32/A33 - I like your ideas, but to save some of the cost of replacing signs and confusing the unwitting, why not leave A33 where it is and use A32 number for Bournemouth-Swindon-Gloucester (sorting out the A417/A419 mess as well)?
A36 - the problem here is that the A36 east of Bath is both a much-used truck route and a vital commuter artery, more important (I reckon) than A350 to Chippenham.
A37 - I believe the original road did indeed continue to Weymouth and Portland Bill.
A39 - reroute along A361 from Barnstaple-Taunton (multiplex with M5) then along A361 and A350 Glastonbury-Frome-Trowbridge-Chippenham to meet the M4?

[Jonny A46]

I agree that it would make sense for the A30 to follow the A303 route, although it is questionable whether this would actually be the right decision. The A37 did originally, and definitely should go to Weymouth, and possibly Portland. Also, the road to Bath probably is more important than to Chippenham but it needs sorting out as getting between the A36 and A46 is a bit messy.

Interesting A39 idea as well, though the disadvantage would be that it would cut off a lot of the A361. My thinking behind rerouting the A32 over the A33 to Reading is that, if that was done, the A32 would be (at least in part) a decent road and the the remainder of the A33 would be so pathetic it could easily be recycled for the Bournemouth-Swindon-Gloucester road. If that happened, then I would route the A417 from Cirencester to Oldbury (A38/M5) through Stroud, and renumber the A417 north of Gloucester as A419.

[Owain]

the road to Bath probably is more important than to Chippenham but it needs sorting out as getting between the A36 and A46 is a bit messy.

Interesting A39 idea as well, though the disadvantage would be that it would cut off a lot of the A361. My thinking behind rerouting the A32 over the A33 to Reading is that, if that was done, the A32 would be (at least in part) a decent road and the the remainder of the A33 would be so pathetic it could easily be recycled for the Bournemouth-Swindon-Gloucester road. If that happened, then I would route the A417 from Cirencester to Oldbury (A38/M5) through Stroud, and renumber the A417 north of Gloucester as A419.

Re. the A36 in Bath: If they built a decent bridge over the Avon between the A4 Batheaston bypass and the A36 where it enters Bath, getting between A36 and A46 would be no trouble at all! Then the new bridge and the whole of the A36 through the south side of Bath (being the main route through the city to Bristol) could be renumbered as A4. I think this would make life a lot easier for both east-west and north-south traffic. At present, I take a B road through Bradford on Avon to get between Frome and the M4, which is fiddly, but far preferable to grinding along in Bath traffic.

Re. the A39 plan: it might sound like sacrilege to many sabristi, but I'd happily cut the A361 down to size in order to do it! The bit north of Swindon could be A434.

Re. your A32/A33 plan: I'm now in complete agreement!

[Steven]

And spare A4x (or even A4xx) numbers are not available - leave well alone I say.

A434 is currently unused, as is A455. The former, long unused, has often been suggested as a better number for the A3400. The latter is only recently deceased, but would be a better number for the A491 which really belongs in north-west Wales.

In a previous life, A455 was Birmingham - Stafford, now of course part of A34. There's no reason why the prodigal number couldn't come home...

[Owain]

Actually, I've always thought that the A34 from Brum to Manc would make a much better A54 than the real A54.

[Chris Bertram]

Actually, I've always thought that the A34 from Brum to Manc would make a much better A54 than the real A54.

Now that *would* be out of zone. Any putative new A54 should start on or north of the A5.

[Chris Bertram]

And spare A4x (or even A4xx) numbers are not available - leave well alone I say.

A434 is currently unused, as is A455. The former, long unused, has often been suggested as a better number for the A3400. The latter is only recently deceased, but would be a better number for the A491 which really belongs in north-west Wales.

In a previous life, A455 was Birmingham - Stafford, now of course part of A34. There's no reason why the prodigal number couldn't come home...

While I remember, A440 has been free since the 70's too.

[DavidBrown]

Re. the A39 plan: it might sound like sacrilege to many sabristi, but I'd happily cut the A361 down to size in order to do it! The bit north of Swindon could be A434.

The main problem is that people still can't get their heads around the A39 and A361 swapping numbers in Barnstaple when the bypass opened in 2007 - changing the numbers for two substantial stretches of road would be a logistical nightmare, and in the end have no benefit whatsoever.

Also, what would you have the A361 between Barnstaple and Ilfracombe as?

[Owain]

Also, what would you have the A361 between Barnstaple and Ilfracombe as?

I think that used to be part of the A399.

[Owain]

Actually, I've always thought that the A34 from Brum to Manc would make a much better A54 than the real A54.

Now that *would* be out of zone. Any putative new A54 should start on or north of the A5.

Point taken, but it would be much more 'in zone' than the half of A34 that was orphaned by the construction of M40.